Surge Protector
- Thread starter Benny Boy
- Start date
A surge is an extremely high voltage. A brownout is a low voltage. UPS provides temporary and 'dirty' power during a blackout. Why then is a UPS recommended as a surge protector? Even the UPS manufacturer does not claim that protection. That UPS was even recommended by ignoring all numbers.
Brownouts are potentially harmful to motorized appliances. Brownouts are perfectly ideal voltages for electronics. Voltages can 'brown' so much that an incandescent bulb dims to 50% intensity. That is perfectly good voltage for any electronics. And potentially harmful to motorized appliances.
If brownout protection is needed, the UPS powers appliances at risk - a refrigerator, air conditioner, or dishwasher. Meanwhile a brownout and a surge are obviously two completely different anomalies. Even more obvious when one learns the numbers. That's the problem with most recommendations made without numbers. The recommendation comes from advertising; by ignoring facts and the anomaly.
Cheapest protection from a surge is to address the threat. To not confuse a brownout with a surge. Earth a 'whole house' protector. About $1 per protected appliance for many decades of well proven and effective protection.
just a noob
Well-Known Member
This says right here that it can handle 459 joules worth of surge:
http://www.apc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=SMT1500
http://www.apc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=SMT1500
Okedokey
Well-Known Member
Dont where you guys live, but ive never had a brown out or surge. I just pay a small insurance premium for electrical damage. Cover the whole house 100%.
As for Westom, you think you know what you're talking about but the amount of errors in your explanation is revealing.
You clearly don't understand electronics if you think large voltage fluctuations (e.g. 50%) will be ideal for electronics. The ATX standard says +/-5%. When you are worrying about 0.1 / 0.3 V to dictate a state of a IC, it matters.
As for Westom, you think you know what you're talking about but the amount of errors in your explanation is revealing.
You clearly don't understand electronics if you think large voltage fluctuations (e.g. 50%) will be ideal for electronics. The ATX standard says +/-5%. When you are worrying about 0.1 / 0.3 V to dictate a state of a IC, it matters.
Major voltage variations on AC mains mean DC voltages do not vary. For example, portable electronics can have an AC voltage vary from 85 to 265 volts. And no DC voltages change.
Lights can dim to 50% intensity. An ideal AC voltage for all electronics. Because AC light bulbs dimmed to 50% intensity means no DC voltage vary. That is a primary function of power supplies. If AC voltage drops significantly lower, then electronics power off without damage.
Read ATX specifications. Its numbers define an ideal AC voltage for an ATX computer is even when an incandescent bulb dims to 40% intensity. The ATX spec says that low AC voltage is sufficient for normal operation, to maintain stable DC voltages that do no vary, AND so that the computer can even startup.
AC voltage dropping that low is not harmful to electronics. But is a serious concern to every motorized appliance. The utility cuts off power (creates a blackout) when voltages drop that low so as to not harm motorized appliances.
Okedokey
Well-Known Member
Quote me anywhere in the ATX specs where it says that. One reference.
Also you didn't specify DC or AC, you just said voltage for electronics, which is to be assumed DC.
The ATX specficiations don't refer to Input Under-Volt limitations, the ATX12V Power Supply Design Guide Section 3.1 does.
And there you will find the following tolerances:
115V nominal - between 90V - 135V
240V nominal - between 180 - 265V.
You go outside that, the PSU cannot maintain the +/- 5% (or 10% under peak) on the 12V rail DC output. This is required for IC stability. This is why they have undervoltage protection.
That means if you drop the "intensity" (whatever that is), by 50% on a 115VAC system you are supplying less than 60V to the PSU, which will fail for electronics.
BTW intensity means very little in electronic engineering (its almost another name for a ratio). Do you mean current or voltage? Or if you are talking about lighting do you mean irradiance?
Last edited:
You quoted those numbers. Apparently do not know what those numbers say. Normal voltage for an ATX computer is when incandescent lamps dim to 40% intensity. If sufficiently informed to make recommendations, you must know what numbers mean; not just quote text. Anybody can quote text. Only those with sufficient knowledge know what those numbers mean. Your numbers say normal voltage for any ATX computer is when lights at less than 40% intensity.
How often do your bulbs dim to 40% intensity? Why does the utility cut off power when lights dim to 40% intensity? Because that voltage, ideal for any ATX computer, is also harmful to motorized appliances. Another erason why brownout damage is only a myth.
Either voltage is perfectly good for any computer. Or a blackout occurs. Niether harm any electronic hardware.
Or view datasheets for any electronics. Normal voltages for any 5 volt digital electronics (CMOS or TTL) is any voltage from 7 down to minus 0.7 volts. No damage at any voltage - even when voltage goes slightly negative.
All voltages, down to zero, are not harmful to electronics. That international standard existed long before the IBM PC existed. In fact, the standard uses this expression for all voltages down to zero - "No Damage Region". Just another reason why informed consumers all but mock the "brownout damage" myth.
We engineers test each design to confirm how low voltage will be before it simply powers off. Apparently you do not design this stuff or do things necessary to see through urban myths such as "destrutive brownouts". As voltage drops, electronics work perfectly fine OR powers off. As internations design standards require. More reasons why we know brownouts do not cause damage - despite advertising and propaganda that says otherwise.
Amazing how many know brownouts are destructive only because others said so. A perfect example of why urban myths and junk science exists and are so popular. The informed learn hard facts and numbers such as summarized here.
You even posted numbers that say normal voltage for any ATX computer is light bulbs at 40% intensity. And did not know what your own numbers were saying. Anybody can view light bulbs to learn how often their voltage is that low. Never? Why would anyone spend money to protect from something that is not destructive and that rarely if ever exists? Advertising? Hearsay? Junk science? Fear?
Benny Boy
Active Member
A really long narrative on a question or 2 in the OP followed by more narraives on other replys? I don't know. A lot to say about electrical engineering? Some misconception of a reply's intent? A little too literal? lol
You asked:
Buy 200 power strip and UPS protectors. Still not have the protection provided by earthing one 'whole house' protector. No exaggeration. That relationship is defined by electrical engineering concepts that were never discussed. That were only summarized at a layman's level.
Only useful solution is one properly earthed 'whole house' protector even sold in Lowes and Home Depot for less than $50. Also listed were other more responsible companies that provide these superior products.
A UPS does not even claim to provide effective protection. Simply read the UPS spec numbers. Nothing claims that protection. Any layman shuld notice the glaring ommission.
Yes, this is difficult to understand. Not because it is complicated. Because best protection, well proven by over 100 years of experience, is mostly unknown to everyone. Is not mentioned in advertising. Is probably so new that this sentence will not be understood until read multiple times. Best possible protection is an earthed 'whole house' protector. Also a least expensive solution. And the only solution found in any facility that cannot have damage.
I think he's trying to dim your light bulbs to 40% intensity. But then again your motorized appliances might have a aneurysm. But your brownout will become a blackout to protect them. In the end your computer will just stop working.
Benny Boy
Active Member
Yes. I knew that was the question that prompted you.
Okedokey
Well-Known Member
The best thing you have ever written, lol to the max.
Im going to request Ian to change my name to Wrongy McWrong