Surge Protection Question

C

Crimsonnaire

Member
Hey, guys.

Recently, a lightning bolt hit either my house or somewhere right around it, and the motherboard to my desktop and my DSL modem are more or less fried. The thing that was surprising about this was that everything was hooked into a surge protector. I don't know what the joule absorption level is, but it's an old unit--over 10 years old. The desktop (HP, AM3) still powers up, but there's no video or audio. I can see the activity blinking normally, so I believe the CPU and HDD are fine. My concern now is whether or not there's a surge protector that can protect these units from a lightning surge.

Is there any modern household surge protector that can serve adequately in this condition or is the most effective method going to be pulling out all the plugs? Would turning off the power switch on the surge protector work equally as well as pulling out the plugs?

Any info is greatly appreciated.
 
Surge protectors protect against standard power surges, not lighting. Lighting protection is massively more complicated and expensive to get proper effectiveness. Your insurance may cover it.

And no, the switch wont protect because the earth is always connected, and even then, the switch would be no barrier. If the energy can arc through 100s of meters of air, it will cross a small switch gap.

Forget the lighting protection, unplug during lighting storms and upgrade your insurance.
 
Crimsonnaire said:
The thing that was surprising about this was that everything was hooked into a surge protector. I don't know what the joule absorption level is, but it's an old unit--over 10 years old..
Click to expand...
You may finally be ready to learn that advertising and hearsay has little relationship to 100 years of well proven science and experience. So many only believe what they were told. Never ask why. Never demand numbers. That is why so many urban myths exist.

Read spec numbers on equivalent plug-in protectors in a store. How many joules? Destructive surges can be hundreds of thousands of joules. How does its tiny joules absorb destructive surges? Why do some then assume all protectors work (fail) like those grossly undersized and extremely profitable devices. Even its manufacturer does not claim to protect from destructive surges. It claims to protect from surges that typically do no damage.

Again, don't take my word for it. How many joules does it absorb? How does that 2 cm part stop what three miles of sky could not? Why do so many not ask such questions and demand numbers? An overwhelming majority automatically believe and recite hearsay and advertising.

A completely different device, unfortunately also called a surge protector, is for all types of surges including direct lightning strikes. Then protection already inside every appliance is not overwhelmed.

Again, pesky numbers. A typical lightning strike is maybe 20,000 amps. A minimal 'whole house' protector is 50,000 amps. Obscenely profitable protectors are intentionally undersized. If it fails on a surge too tiny to overwhelm protection inside all appliances, then hearsay and wild speculation will claim, "My protector sacrificed itself to save my ....". Nonsense. The appliance protected itself. Same tiny surge destroyed a grossly undesized protector. It claimed to absorb how many joules? What is its specification number? Post it.

Same applies to degradation. Grossly undersized protectors degrade quickly. Meanwhile, MOV manufacturers even define how to test a properly sized protector.
The change of Vb shall be measured after the impulse listed below is applied 10,000 times continuously with the interval of ten seconds at room temperature.
Click to expand...
They discuss testing a protector 10,000 times? And your protector is said to degrade on a first surge? At what point is a most expensive protector also called grossly undersized?

If it did degrade, then why did its light not report that failure? More questions that only exist when one first asks for spec numbers and why it should work.

Telco COs suffer about 100 surges which each storm. So your town is without phone service for four days after each storm? Of course not. They don't waste money on protectors too close to electronics and without any earth ground. Instead, they locate another proven and superior device up to 50 meters distant from electronics. And connect it low impedance (ie 'less than 10 feet') to earth ground. The 100 surges (even direct lightning strikes) do not damage that $multi-million computer. However these realities get forgotten when one ignores numbers and does not ask some damning questions.

Four days without phone service after each storm? Yes if they were using the completely different device (also called a protector) that you were using.

Even your plug-in protectors need protection only possible by earthing that different device. A proven solution costs about $1 per protected appliance. And comes with numbers that define protection from all types of surges. How much was your protector?

One said no such device exists. Another said grossly undersized protectors degrade with time. Over 100 years of science and experience says why another proven device makes harmless even direct lightning strikes and does not fail. More numbers that advertisers fear you might learn. A typical lightning strike is 20,000 amps. So a mimimally sized 'whole house' protector (costing about $1 per protected appliance) is 50,000 amps. Because protectors must remain functional. Not degrade as another heard and repeated.

That's an executive summary.
 
Last edited:
Complete nonsense ^

The surge protectors are simply designed for normal power distribution surges and brownouts that can easily destroy electronics. They were never designed for lighting, so your conspiracy theory is silly.
 
Okedokey said:
The surge protectors are simply designed for normal power distribution surges and brownouts that can easily destroy electronics.
Click to expand...
If technically informed, then one knows no surge protector does anything for brownouts. All electronic appliances must work fine at all brownout voltages without damage. Or simply power off. That is common sense.

One only need read manufacturer specifications to know protectors do nothing for brownouts. Some learn only from their emotions and hearsay. Ignore all numbers. Then know surge protectors cannot protect from lightning, even though this protection is found in every telephone CO everywhere in the world.

Grossly undersized protectors are $3 power strips with ten cent protector parts selling for $25, $60, or even $120. Some know that money must be spent to protect from surges that typically cause no damage. Surges too small to overwhelm protection already inside all appliances can still destroy inferior protectors. But many spend tnes or 100 times more money. Then confidently proclaim that surge protectors protect from brownouts. Please.

Protectors from companies with integrity do surge protection from surges that typically do damage - including lightning. These superior solutions cost about $1 per protected appliance. But are only marketed to informed consumers who first learn numbers before making recommendations. And who know surge protectors never protect from brownouts.
 
Like he said, a brownout isnt a surge, its just your power getting shut off. Its like unplugging something with it still on, shouldnt damage it at all.

There would be no point in having a surge protector for brownouts.

I dont have my pc hooked up to a surge protector, and we have had power outages from storms thousands of times over the years and my powersupply is completely unharmed.
 
Last edited:
A brownout is a significant voltage drop. Nothihng like a disconnect (blackout).

Brownouts can kill electronics very very quickly. Most surge protectors simply keep voltages within a specification. THis includes vdroop as well as surges. Surge protectors dont protect from lighting and never have.
 
Okedokey said:
A brownout is a significant voltage drop. Nothihng like a disconnect (blackout).

Brownouts can kill electronics very very quickly. Most surge protectors simply keep voltages within a specification. THis includes vdroop as well as surges. Surge protectors dont protect from lighting and never have.
Click to expand...

Wouldnt a voltage drop be the opposite of a surge? And how does a surge protector keep the voltage regulated from a drop? Wouldnt it need nice size capacitors to do so?

Im not arguing the point, im just trying to understand how something generally so small could compensate for a lack of significant power

I dont know anything about surge protectors to be honest, but everything I read from this doesnt mention anything about how they would have an impact in a low voltage state:

http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/everyday-tech/surge-protector2.htm

Which makes me think:

It says surge protectors should be used with computers. However, if, like it says, the surges are relatively minor to the point where they wouldnt damage less "delicate" electronics, then shouldnt the power supply in the computer be able to handle a tiny surge? Power supplies have their own voltage regulator, so I would think that even if there was a tiny surge in the power, the components inside the computer shouldnt be effected if the voltage regulator in the power supply is functioning properly right?
 
Last edited:
A spike refers to both sharp and sudden increases or decreases in voltage. These are much less harmful than brownouts. A brownout is different because it lasts longer than spikes, refers to only drops in voltage, and are much more damaging. Brownouts last too long for a surge protector to have any effect.
Surge protectors shield against voltage spikes. Surge protectors condition small variations in voltage using capacitance. Some surge protectors include brownout protection by shutting off the circuit when a brownout occurs, but it would have to be a smart surge protector. Let me emphasize that a lone smart surge protector would cut power to your devices if a brownout occurs, nothing more.
Buying huge hardware for protecting your technology from a lightning strike will probably be a foolish purchase. For one, you've got little chance of being struck again. Additionally, it would be cheaper and safer to get a lightning rod.

If you're concerned about solely spikes and brownouts, the best idea would be to get an uninterruptible power supply (UPS) with smart surge protection/smart surge protector. This would condition the line so spikes would have no ill effect and provide ample power to your devices for several minutes in the event of a power loss due to a brownout or complete power cut.
 
ScottALot said:
A spike refers to both sharp and sudden increases or decreases in voltage. These are much less harmful than brownouts. A brownout is different because it lasts longer than spikes, refers to only drops in voltage, and are much more damaging. Brownouts last too long for a surge protector to have any effect.
Surge protectors shield against voltage spikes. Surge protectors condition small variations in voltage using capacitance. Some surge protectors include brownout protection by shutting off the circuit when a brownout occurs, but it would have to be a smart surge protector. Let me emphasize that a lone smart surge protector would cut power to your devices if a brownout occurs, nothing more.
Buying huge hardware for protecting your technology from a lightning strike will probably be a foolish purchase. For one, you've got little chance of being struck again. Additionally, it would be cheaper and safer to get a lightning rod.

If you're concerned about solely spikes and brownouts, the best idea would be to get an uninterruptible power supply (UPS) with smart surge protection/smart surge protector. This would condition the line so spikes would have no ill effect and provide ample power to your devices for several minutes in the event of a power loss due to a brownout or complete power cut.
Click to expand...

Yea. My stepdad had like 6 of these things that had batteries in them, im assuming those are the ups's your talking about? They said APC on them, think it was the brand name. I threw them all away because they had been sittin in my garage for about a decade.
 
Excellent information on surges and surge protection is at:
http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lhm/IEEE_Guide.pdf
- "How to protect your house and its contents from lightning: IEEE guide for surge protection of equipment connected to AC power and communication circuits" published by the IEEE in 2005 (the IEEE is a major organization of electrical and electronic engineers).
And also:
http://pml.nist.gov/spd-anthology/files/Surges_happen!.pdf
- "NIST recommended practice guide: Surges Happen!: how to protect the appliances in your home" published by the US National Institute of Standards and Technology in 2001

The IEEE surge guide is more technical.

westom said:
Read spec numbers on equivalent plug-in protectors in a store. How many joules? Destructive surges can be hundreds of thousands of joules.
Click to expand...

The author of the NIST surge guide investigated how much energy might be absorbed in a MOV (the voltage limiting element) in a plug-in protector. Branch circuits were 10m and longer, and the surge on incoming power wires was up to 10,000A (the maximum that has any reasonable probability of occurring, as below). The maximum energy at the MOV was a surprisingly small 35 joules. In 13 of 15 cases it was 1 joule or less. (There are a couple reasons it is so low if anyone is interested.)

Plug-in protectors will have a higher rating than that, and protectors with much higher ratings are readily available. High ratings mean long life. A plug-in protector with high ratings, wired correctly (as below), is very likely to protect from a very near very strong lightning strike. (But not a direct strike to the building, which requires lightning rods.)

westom said:
How does its tiny joules absorb destructive surges?
Click to expand...

It doesn't.

Neither plug-in or service panel protectors work by absorbing the surge. (But both absorb some energy in the process of protecting.)

westom said:
Even its manufacturer does not claim to protect from destructive surges. It claims to protect from surges that typically do no damage.
Click to expand...

Complete nonsense. Some even have protected equipment warranties.

But they have to be connected correctly. An interconnected set of equipment has to be connected to the same protector, and all external wires (including power, phone, cable, ....) must go through the protector. My guess is that was not done by the OP.

westom said:
How does that 2 cm part stop what three miles of sky could not?
Click to expand...

Protectors do not work by "stopping".

The IEEE surge guide clearly explains how plug-in protectors work starting page 30. They limit the voltage from each wire to the ground at the protector. The voltage between wires going to the protected equipment is safe for the protected equipment. (And that is why all wires have to go through the protector.)

westom said:
A typical lightning strike is maybe 20,000 amps. A minimal 'whole house' protector is 50,000 amps.
Click to expand...

Service panel protectors are a real good idea.
But from the NIST surge guide:
"Q - Will a surge protector installed at the service entrance be sufficient for the whole house?
A - There are two answers to than question: Yes for one-link appliances [electronic equipment], No for two-link appliances [equipment connected to power AND phone or cable or....]. Since most homes today have some kind of two-link appliances, the prudent answer to the question would be NO - but that does not mean that a surge protector installed at the service entrance is useless."

Service panel protectors do not by themselves prevent high voltages from developing between power and phone/cable/... wires. The NIST surge guide suggests most equipment damage is from high voltage between power and signal wires. An example of where a service panel protector would provide no protection is the IEEE surge guide example starting page 30.

The author of the NIST surge guide also looked at the surge current that could come in on residential power wires. The maximum with any reasonable probability of occurring was 10,000A per wire. That is based on a 100,000A lighting strike to a utility pole adjacent to the house in typical urban overhead distribution.

Recommended ratings for service panel protectors is in the IEEE surge guide on page 18. Ratings far higher than 10,000A per wire mean the protector will have a long life.

Service panel protectors are very likely to protect anything connected only to power wires from a very near very strong lightning strike.

westom said:
Obscenely profitable protectors are intentionally undersized.
Click to expand...

Idiotic. But westom refuses to understand how protectors work.

westom said:
Even your plug-in protectors need protection only possible by earthing that different device.
Click to expand...

More complete nonsense.

Best protection involves a service panel protector, and plug-in protectors on sensitive electronics - particularly if it has both power and signal connections, but plug-in protectors will work without a service panel protector (as evidenced by the 35J max figure above).

Contrary to westom's rant, both the IEEE and NIST surge guides say plug-in protectors are effective. They also have information not covered here.
 
G80FTW said:
It says surge protectors should be used with computers. However, if, like it says, the surges are relatively minor to the point where they wouldnt damage less "delicate" electronics, then shouldnt the power supply in the computer be able to handle a tiny surge? Power supplies have their own voltage regulator, so I would think that even if there was a tiny surge in the power, the components inside the computer shouldnt be effected if the voltage regulator in the power supply is functioning properly right?
Click to expand...

Put numbers to you reasoning. This 120 volt UPS in battery backup mode outputs 200 volts square waves with a spike of up to 270 volts. Because electronics are so robust, then even that 270 volt spike is just fine for all electronics.

HowStuffWorks is full of lies and misconceptions. Even numbers are missing from its every claim. It has been removed multiple times from Wikipedia citations for that reason. Their 'sensitive' electronics claim, combined with above numbers, says that UPS would destroy electronics. Nonsense. Electronics are routinely robust.

Many surge protectors are rated to absorb hundreds of joules. But a regulator in most electronics will harmlessly absorb that surge as energy to power its electronics. Electronics are that robust.

Brownouts do not harm electronics for a long list of obvious reasons. Brownout (and 'dirty' power from that UPS) can be harmful to motorized appliances. Not to electronics.

Since electronics are robust, then most 'surges' hyped by HowStuffWorks are only noise. Your concern is a rare and destructive transient that occurs maybe once every seven years. A number that can vary significantly even in the same town. And that neither a power strip nor UPS claims top protect from.

Your telco's switching center (CO) suffers about 100 surges with each thunderstorm. They use a completely different and well proven solution so that your town has phone service every day after each storm. You are strongly advised to consider this superior and less expensive 'whole house' solution. Since even a UPS needs protection only possible with that proven solution. Any facility that cannot have damage uses what has been proven by over 100 years of science and experience. And that HowStuffWorks does not even mention.

Ignore the myths about brouwnouts. That fear only exists when wild speculation somehow becomes fact - by even ignoring numbers.
 
westom said:
Electronics are routinely robust.
Click to expand...

No...Its talking about computers. And yes, when it comes to computers they are sensitive to voltage changes.


And, I dont think 270 volts would be fine for all electronics that are made to run 110-120 volts. Im willing to bet that would destroy them. Im not sure its talking about spikes that high.
 
G80FTW said:
No...Its talking about computers. And yes, when it comes to computers they are sensitive to voltage changes.


And, I dont think 270 volts would be fine for all electronics that are made to run 110-120 volts. Im willing to bet that would destroy them. Im not sure its talking about spikes that high.
Click to expand...
Yeah, let's go plug our computers into that 220V dryer outlet and see what happens...
 
WRXGuy1 said:
Yeah, let's go plug our computers into that 220V dryer outlet and see what happens...
Click to expand...

Haha. I suspect a fire.


What i think was funny, was that he answered my question as if it wasnt a question but a statement. Even despite the question marks.
 
Last edited:
WRXGuy1 said:
However you have to manually select the input voltage, otherwise severe damage occurs if you try to use a 220v source when set to 110.
Click to expand...

Only on garbage units. Anything we would recommend here has automatic voltage regulation.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top